Dr. Ute Liersch: Toothpaste

In this episode of "Humor in the C Suite," host Kate Davis interviews Dr. Ute Liersch, a seasoned psychologist known for her distinct approach to leadership and resilience. The conversation weaves through Dr. Liersch's eclectic career, from being dismissed as not "clever enough" for university to achieving remarkable success in the realms of psychology and business. Her compelling story and professional journey underscore the strength she drew from humor, using it as a tool for psychological clarity and emotional integrity. The episode delves into how humor plays a pivotal role in Dr. Liersch's therapeutic and coaching methodologies, aiding in creating an extraordinary work culture and fostering genuine connections.

Key Takeaways:

• Humor can be a powerful tool in therapy and leadership, breaking down barriers and fostering a positive work culture.
• Embracing one's authentic self is crucial for impactful leadership and personal fulfillment.
• Cultural competence is essential in leveraging humor effectively across diverse settings.
• Self-deprecating humor, when used wisely, can enhance leader-team relationships by humanizing leaders.
• Encouraging a child's perspective can simplify decision-making and unlock creative solutions.

"We sometimes need to bring some ridicule in so it stops it having possession over us." - Dr. Ute Liersch

Additional Links & Resources:

• Interested in being a guest on Humor in the C-Suite? Reach out to book a call with Kate!
• Learn more about me and my work at katedavis.ca

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Humor in the C-Suite! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast, share it with your friends, and leave a rating or review. Your support helps the podcast continue to grow. 

Hosted by Kate Davis
Edited by Chris @ Wider View Studios

Transcript

0:00:03 - (Kate Davis): Hello, I'm Kate Davis and this is Humor in the C Suite, a show about how leaders use humor to create an extraordinary work culture. Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode of Humor in the C Suite. My guest this week is Dr. Utah Liash. She's a chartered counseling and coaching psychologist with over two decades of experience in navigating complexities of stress, leadership and change, newer divergent, and a cancer survivor, she brings both clinical precision and a life well lived and depth to her work.

0:00:37 - (Kate Davis): She is known for her calm authority, her elegant pragmatism. Dr. Utah helps people lead and live with psychological clarity and emotional integrity. Her work spans trauma, informed leadership, functional communication, and sustainable high performance. And she is trusted by organizations around the world. She is the author of A Minimalist Guide to Becoming Resilient, a practical and psychological rich resource for those ready to shift from overwhelming to embodied clarity.

0:01:10 - (Kate Davis): I absolutely loved our conversation today. It was so thoughtful and honestly, stuff that we've never talked about before or brought up on the podcast. So I'm super excited to share her insights as to how humor can help us think differently and lead differently. So please welcome my guest. Dr. I am so grateful to have you here. Dr. Like honestly, just the amount, like just reading up on you and your amazing book, which we'll get to, but I just, I would, I thought we would just start by telling or you telling your story, who you are, what you're doing now, where your research has taken you and your book and, and then we'll get into it and how humor is playing a role in all that.

0:02:02 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): To be clear, without humor, I wouldn't be here. As simple as that. And I use humor a lot in therapy and in my, my coaching stuff. Look, I was very quickly and very early at the age of 10, sorted out of the capability and ability to ever go to university because I was deemed not clever enough. So my path is quite a checkered one. So I did training in hotel and hotel management and I worked across the world in hotels. I worked as a very young woman in South Africa, in Spain and Texas in the UK.

0:02:44 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): After 10 years I dropped that because I'd gotten basically bored and I had a startup in education. And again I started from zero in something very new in, in my hometown in Germany and I created a business from four pupils up to 840. I had a team of 20 or 20, 24 people. And after 10 years, the company I worked together changed tremendously. It was a startup at that time. And then it became, of course after 10 years, a startup becomes a, has a different vibe. Right.

0:03:19 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So the hunters are going and the farmers are coming in, which is of course needed. But I am not a farmer. So I sold the business and then I trained. I did a master's in creative writing at Oxford Roots. Then I did a bachelor in psychology. Then I started a master's in clinical psychology. But I had a cancer diagnosis, so I stopped all of that. I worked with my medical team with the cancer. I then did not return to the masters, but left the dome of a patient to go to Sri Lanka to volunteer there for the National Institute for Mental Health. I came back, I did a college certificate in counseling and then I did a doctorate in psych.

0:04:13 - (Kate Davis): I can't believe they told you you weren't smart enough. What happened? Oh my gosh.

0:04:20 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, so it's quite fun.

0:04:22 - (Kate Davis): Wow. Very. And now you're residing in London doing your practice and teaching and, and all that. I love that. What a colorful. It, it's so interesting because, you know, we're here because of humor.

0:04:37 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:04:37 - (Kate Davis): And I, I'm so interested, you know, as you say, you were in Sri Lanka doing this. Culturally speaking, do you have to shift your mindset a lot?

0:04:49 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, I remember the first time when I left Germany. Look, I was very young, I was so 17 when I said, I'm gone, I'm done. I went to Spain, I had rudimentary understanding of Spanish and I went to the south of Spain and I, I left the airplane and you know, I was 17. I'm educated woman already. I mean, I was literally kick ass. Cindy Lopa was my idol. And honestly, you know, what costs the world nothing and whoa, I was really cool.

0:05:20 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And I, I, I, I hit the tarmac, I leave and the family picks me up and my whole world within a second disintegrates. Because all of a sudden I think everyone hates me, everyone is screaming at me because of course I'm culturally unaware that Spanish people do speak a little bit louder than the guys I have. And, and so, so the misunderstanding, the not knowing, the being totally lost, the having for the first time a rupture in what we call so beautifully our identity or personality with which I don't work any longer. Right. Because I very suspicious that these things actually exist was really big. Right. It was really, really big with all the stuff that comes in with it. I mean, look, I was a 17 year old, not too bad looking young woman.

0:06:13 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And I grew up in a time when we said work hard, party hard, and I fulfilled both you and I.

0:06:20 - (Kate Davis): Both you and I.

0:06:22 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Both. And now she's closing her mouth.

0:06:25 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, exactly. So in your practice, you know, your many lives of practicing, I feel like we, we can stay in the present day.

0:06:36 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:06:37 - (Kate Davis): When you are coaching, when you are, you know, you say you use humor in a lot of those situations. How are you using humor?

0:06:45 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So I, I had to use humor right at the beginning because when I, When I landed in. In. In the UK for the second time, and then psychology, I'm. I'm very German in a sense of. I'm very direct. And for the first three years, I really tried to become more British English. So, I mean, there are lots of different British ways. Right. But this English, Britishness, and then I had to look in the mirror and I said, this doesn't work for you because you're losing yourself.

0:07:15 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): You. You don't speak through things that aren't said, which is the high, the highest English, English, British English way of talking. You. You just are direct. So I had to really start incorporating this into my daily life because I live in a society, even though I speak English, I don't speak British English at all. Right. So when people come to my practice, I say, I. I literally lead with the following.

0:07:42 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I come with a warning.

0:07:46 - (Kate Davis): That's great.

0:07:50 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I'm German, I'm direct. If it's too much, you can say, woo. Rein it back. I may or may not be able to do so. Right.

0:07:57 - (C): Yeah.

0:07:58 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And what you see is what you get. I'm not psychodynamic in any shape or form. I'm not pretending to be anything else but the person I am in this moment. So how I am here with you, every single patient and client and client of mine, and I use both words intentionally, can attest that this is how I am.

0:08:24 - (Kate Davis): And what do you. What does psychodynamic mean?

0:08:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So it's Freudian stuff, Right?

0:08:29 - (Kate Davis): Okay. Okay.

0:08:30 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And it's this under. It is a bit of hierarchy. It's very. Still very much liked. I think New York is still a hub.

0:08:39 - (Kate Davis): I can see that.

0:08:41 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah. But, you know, it's. It's. It's therapy without ending. It has this understanding that I, as the therapist, know more than the client. It has the understanding that we need to discover our past in order to be better in the here and now. It gives some, Some. Some. Some power to discovering of knowledge is already healing, which, you know, I would say is fair for cancer. Right. Can I be very crass?

0:09:08 - (Kate Davis): Oh, please do.

0:09:10 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Knowing that I'm raped, it's not helping me for healing.

0:09:14 - (Kate Davis): Right.

0:09:16 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And you see me switching very Quickly here. And this is what you would see me doing when I work with my clients also. Because pure knowledge alone without actioning something that helps us to bring agency back in our life is what you say is.

0:09:36 - (C): Yeah.

0:09:37 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): It's kind of you playing with yourself, but you're not going to play with the world.

0:09:41 - (Kate Davis): No. And you lack empathy at that point. Or maybe not.

0:09:47 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Where are we going with it? And, and this is sometimes what I say to, to patients I say. And to clients, I say, look, we can either carry on thinking about all the things that have happened. Fair enough. I can entertain this, I can talk a lot. Or we can actually, you know, take our gloves off, get dirty and move into a life you want to live.

0:10:13 - (Kate Davis): I.

0:10:14 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): That.

0:10:15 - (Kate Davis): Who wouldn't want that? It's terrifying. But yeah, absolutely. And you know what I love so your book, the Minimum Minimalists Guide to Becoming Resilient. Because I find humor, the best type of humor is very simple.

0:10:32 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:10:32 - (Kate Davis): It, you know, it's, it's uncomplicated, it's smart.

0:10:36 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:10:37 - (Kate Davis): But it's, it's simple. And I find, you know, when I was looking up your guard, it's. There's something really beautiful about that and very online or on par with humor and using humor.

0:10:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Absolutely. So I work with, I work across two really big different truths or ontologies or worlds. So I'm trained in existential therapy, but I'm also trained in third wave behavioralism. And people say, but how can you bring them together? They don't even like each other. And I say that's exactly why I trained them because otherwise I'm gonna get, you know, this barcoded therapist, which I don't want to be.

0:11:20 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I have something against barcodes. Probably something to do with my history as a German. Right. Not never ever go there ever again. So. Need to have a broad understanding of stuff so that we can have fierce discussion with ourselves. And then what in. In third wave behavioralism there is, there is a therapy called act acceptance and commitment therapy. And one of the things is we have to. Is this understanding is we cannot eradicate thoughts. Let's just be very clear. Anyone who tells you just stop thinking about it, good luck.

0:11:50 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Right. Ain't gonna happen. I mean, just think about. If you don't think about it, first you have to think about it, then you have to analyze that you don't like it, then you have to say, I actually don't want to think about the thing I have just thought by now, what have you done four times?

0:12:08 - (C): Yeah, absolutely.

0:12:11 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Utter nonsense. Anyway, what we can do, however, is we can use humor as a technique to make thoughts that scare us so much. A lot less prevalent and things I do with my, my clients is we sing, for example. So I ask them if you have. For example, I'm not asking people to do that. So this needs to be really very well guided.

0:12:38 - (C): Yeah.

0:12:38 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I'm using me as an example because I know myself quite well. So if I have one of these thoughts, you know, ute, again, you should have done better. Can you hear my intonation?

0:12:48 - (C): Yes.

0:12:49 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): That's how my, that's how my brain talks to me a lot. Ute, you should have done better. And when I catch myself, I literally, you could, you could hear me under the shower saying, ute, you should have done better. I can't really sing, but. Oh, boy, that really does something to the seriousness and the attachment and the fusion to that very negative, unhealthy.

0:13:13 - (Kate Davis): Yes, I, I absolutely. I call it putting a spin on what's stressing you, which is from Victor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning. And you know, he talks about if something's stressing you out, sing about it, dance about it, react to the stress differently than you normally would.

0:13:32 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Absolutely, absolutely. He does this beautiful part in his book where he said, sometimes we were able to make music and for these moments, joy entered our life and we were not confined in the camp.

0:13:49 - (C): Yes. Yeah.

0:13:51 - (Kate Davis): Amazing. Amazing.

0:13:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:13:53 - (Kate Davis): So when you're, when you're dealing with your coaching, are, is it always one on one or do you do group stuff?

0:14:01 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So I do group stuff. I do group workshops which are kind of perception shifting. So I've just done a workshop, Smart Decision for Smart Women, which was here in London for a clinic. And here we had a couple of really high flying women who were in particular parts in their lives and said, you know, a little bit stuck. So, and here what we brought in, in the shifting was the understanding of what is time, what are relationships, which relationships are nurturing, which relationships are depleting, the idea of a master group.

0:14:41 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And then we brought in what are decisions and how to make decisions and everything based on what's your purpose.

0:14:49 - (Kate Davis): I love that. And were you using humor within that at all?

0:14:54 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, a lot. Especially I can't pronounce a lot of things. So one of the games I play at the beginning is I bring a ball of wool in and then we throw the ball around and you always keep one part of the wool and then you throw it around. So when you throw it in the group, you start to build a Net, of course. Right. And the net stands for a lot of things. But what is quite hilarious is I'm really petrified of, of having something thrown at me.

0:15:25 - (Kate Davis): Oh, yes.

0:15:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So it's really funny how I duck even in front of.

0:15:35 - (Kate Davis): So. Great. That's, that is a great game. I love just silly games like that because I find all of a sudden everyone's defenses are just lowered. People feel like they can be themselves. There's a little part of your child self is, you know, comes alive again.

0:15:52 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:15:52 - (Kate Davis): So I, I do love that. And it's, it's, it's, you know, whether it's, you're in the boardroom, whether, you know, you're dealing with staff, do you find it really helps with the collaboration?

0:16:04 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yes. I have clients who, who really. So I have one client who said, I'm always interested in what you are wearing because, oh my goodness, your wardrobe must be huge because you never wear the same thing. And, and, and so it was a man and he presented it very seriously. And I said, I hope you are as attentive to your wife's clothes as you are to mine. Or is there a power balance here?

0:16:31 - (C): Yeah.

0:16:33 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So look, a playfulness. And I think you good humor.

0:16:38 - (C): Yeah.

0:16:39 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Quiet playfulness. Right. Requires the ability of not to taking yourself. So excuse my language now. Damn. Seriously.

0:16:49 - (C): Yes. Yeah.

0:16:52 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And this is really, really helpful. So I'm, I'm quite neurodivergent, which means I have a diagnosis with dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalc. And a psychiatrist who I know quite well said you don't need an ADHD diagnosis. I don't diagnose something that is so blatantly optimistic. Yes.

0:17:15 - (Kate Davis): Oh, now I gotta ask because, you know, this is what you do. Are you for ADHD drugs or against them?

0:17:23 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Neither. Nor.

0:17:24 - (Kate Davis): Okay. I love that.

0:17:25 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah. I can tell you why it's not my decision. So when I write, I diagnose ADHD because I was frankly really fed up with everyone. Everyone who is not adhd, diagnosing adhd. And I think this is really bad. And when you get, when you get a report from me, it's most of the time between 20 and 30 pages long. And one of the parts I've made very sure I have one page where it gives you the biomedical model of adhd, which is the drug based model which says we have an under dopamine brain that screens and therefore what we are giving the brain is basically amphetamines.

0:18:07 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): There are other drugs out there, but that's kind of the Standard treatment in order to get your brain on a level that has a normal stimulation. This is really, in a nutshell and there's a huge discussion and then I give you a psychological anthropologic, anthropolog. Finish the sentence here properly in the word. Anyway, can't say the word.

0:18:27 - (C): Yeah.

0:18:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I give you a historical understanding, which is more, more a psychological understanding, is that if you are looking at trades, at leaders in times when we were hunters, they are synonymous with what we call today ADHD traits. So what this actually says is ADHD can only exist because our environment has changed so tremendously that the traits I am bringing to the table are actually not helping, but hindering today.

0:18:59 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So in, in that part of my, my clinical report, what I'm actually telling you, it's not, it's not an, a psychiatric illness or a disorder at all. It's simply a togetherness of traits that are hindering in the environment we humans have created. Right.

0:19:20 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, that is, it's. Well, it's so interesting to me because, you know, when we started this, this discussion, they told you you weren't smart enough. And When I was 8, I had a teacher who literally, because I was always putting on shows and being goofy. It's what I do now, and I'm paid for it, but who literally told me I couldn't read. And I believed her wholeheartedly. I was eight, I was like, oh, yeah, no, absolutely, I can't read. And I spent a year not being able to read until they took me for every psychological test and I literally had one old, one adult say, oh, no, no, it was just someone telling you you can't read. You can. And then I was like, oh, I can.

0:20:00 - (Kate Davis): So it's, yeah, you know, perception is everything.

0:20:05 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I, I, I, I had a, I had a client I worked with who was diagnosed with bipolar and came for an ADHD assessment. And I thought, that's not bipolar. It's just not. You know, there are, there are presents which are overlapping. Yeah, we had a, we had, we had a long day. It is quite, it's, it's substantial, such a diagnostic pathway. Right. And it was really fascinating to see that my suspicion of them not being bipolar was, was approved and by the psychiatrist because the drug treatment needs to be prescribed in the UK by a psychiatrist. So I then refer out just to you, to the community I trust.

0:20:49 - (C): Yeah.

0:20:51 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And this person then came back and said, changed my life. They are taking ADHD drugs and they find it really helpful.

0:21:00 - (C): Yeah.

0:21:01 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Other people have said, try not for me yeah. And I think both pathways need to be held by any clinician, regardless of what me as a person thinks about.

0:21:17 - (C): Yes, absolutely.

0:21:18 - (Kate Davis): You always, you gotta.

0:21:19 - (C): Yeah.

0:21:20 - (Kate Davis): Be intuitive. I do feel like if I change the subject now, you might think I have adhd, but I.

0:21:30 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): No problem.

0:21:33 - (Kate Davis): Hi, it's Kate. I can't believe you made it halfway through the show. Look, if you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on Humor in the C Suite, I would love to have you, so email me. Kateate Davis ca. Do you believe humor can play a part in building strong relationships and collaboration?

0:21:54 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So if people don't, if people are not able to communicate with each other, what is really great is to build stories with them in order to make them giggle. Because if you laugh together, something relational happens. You notice. I mean, you're a, you're a comedian. Right. So I as I dabbled in stand up comedy. I'm just saying.

0:22:22 - (Kate Davis): Oh, that's great.

0:22:24 - (C): Good.

0:22:25 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And that's why I'm. What the reason why I bring it up is the. When you are there on stage and please correct me, should I go wrong.

0:22:34 - (C): Yeah.

0:22:35 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): You need to make sure that the people laugh with you, not at you. Right. But whether they are with you or at you when they are laughing, those people in the audience have created a group.

0:22:50 - (Kate Davis): Correct, correct.

0:22:52 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And that is something laughter can do incredibly quickly and incredibly beautifully. Yeah.

0:22:58 - (Kate Davis): It really does connect people and it's so inclusive.

0:23:02 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, exactly, exactly. So a good leader is able to create an atmosphere where people can giggle together.

0:23:14 - (C): Yes. Yeah.

0:23:16 - (Kate Davis): Do you find when you're coaching leaders and people, you know, in, in sort of high positions, is it hard for them to trust using humor?

0:23:25 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah. Yeah. Especially so my. If you allow me to say that.

0:23:30 - (Kate Davis): Oh, please.

0:23:31 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): The reason. So my very narrow way I'm coaching, I'm only taking people on who want to do a psychological and a leadership development because many leaders also have trauma and many decisions made by leaders are trauma informed. So the agency of the decision is within the trauma experience, not in the leadership experience. Right. So that's why I'm doing both. But I'm bringing it together.

0:24:04 - (Kate Davis): Do they know the difference? Do they know they're leading with trauma?

0:24:07 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): As soon as they talk to me, yes.

0:24:09 - (C): Okay.

0:24:14 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And I'm very clear. Right. When I work with people, I say, look, you got to make a decision who is going to lead here.

0:24:24 - (C): Wow.

0:24:25 - (Kate Davis): And do you find humor helps them get out of that?

0:24:28 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yes.

0:24:29 - (Kate Davis): Okay.

0:24:30 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Absolutely. It is sometimes a bit crass maybe. So I don't want to into into too much detail. Because you need to understand that, you know, I'm not. I'm not like a water bomb where I smash on the ground and everything is wet. I do. I do hold people really safe and like.

0:24:51 - (C): Yes.

0:24:52 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And. And with a lot of care. But we need to sometimes bring a ridicule into some. Into a particular behavior so that it stops taking advantage of us. Right.

0:25:10 - (Kate Davis): Oh, to that a little bit more. Yeah, say that again.

0:25:16 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah. So we sometimes need to bring some ridicule in so we stop it. It having possession over us. So when you have somebody, and I'm not talking about a proper OCD presentation, but when you have somebody who goes totally bonkers because, I don't know, the coffee cup is again, standing in the sink. Right. The coffee cup stands for something. Let's just. Let's just be very clear. There might be something else going on in the background.

0:25:48 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And therefore I say, you need a psychologist who can work with that. But what's gonna happen actually, when we say. Yeah, I mean, this coffee cup is literally life endangering. No, I mean, in the sink, this coffee cup, it's just eradicating everything. It has full blood. So I'm taking it here to the extreme. Yeah. And at the beginning, people walk with me because it still feels right. But I push and I push and I push until they say to me, don't be ridiculous. And then I can say, I am ridiculous.

0:26:23 - (C): Ah, yes.

0:26:25 - (Kate Davis): Because, like, just listening to you. Do they think the coffee cup means the person's lazy or inconsiderate or, you know.

0:26:34 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, now we are. I'm using humor in order to overcome that placeholder. Right.

0:26:40 - (Kate Davis): Or maybe they were just in a rush and it had nothing to do with anything, and we just. We put. We build up this whole thing scenario.

0:26:50 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I mean, as Korea. No, no, Sorry.

0:26:52 - (Kate Davis): No. I was just gonna say, like, as. As a comedian, as a speaker, you know, so much of my business is people saying no and, you know, learning to deal with that rejection and not have that validate you.

0:27:06 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:27:06 - (Kate Davis): And. And all those things. And I find just having a good sense of humor about myself.

0:27:11 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:27:12 - (Kate Davis): You know, And. And thinking. But I can see, like, it's so interesting for you to say a coffee cup in a sink can mean so much.

0:27:19 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:27:19 - (Kate Davis): Because it just. Yeah, it's. It's fascinating.

0:27:23 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I don't know if you have this in. In. In. In Canada, in Bavaria, we say, why did you get divorced? Oh, well, because of the. Of the. Of the toothpaste. Because he pressed it at the top and I always pressed it at the bottom.

0:27:35 - (C): Yeah.

0:27:36 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): You know, a lot of clients of my of mine know that toothpaste example. And I do say to them, are we talking toothpaste? So if you would listen into the conversation you would think, oh my goodness, this auto is totally bonkers. Which you know, a certain extent is true. But then of course the toothpaste stands for something.

0:27:55 - (C): Yes, yes, Abs.

0:27:58 - (Kate Davis): Well, it's like all of the verse travels where they, you know, do you crack the egg at the bottom or the top? It led to a big war, a lot of separation.

0:28:07 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Whereas I would say don't eat the egg.

0:28:14 - (Kate Davis): Okay. I. I do have a question though. Do you find sub. Because you know we. You did mention. Are you laughing at yourself or. Yeah. How do you feel about self deprecating humor? Because I find when you're a leader that can sort of bring your team in. How do you feel about that?

0:28:32 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): If and when needed. Yes. I once started a talk on procrastination with the following sentence. Your life sucks as mine because we are both hanging out here rather than going out. So that's kind of, you know, a bit of.

0:28:50 - (C): Yeah.

0:28:50 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Self explanation.

0:28:52 - (Kate Davis): Of course.

0:28:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): But I also have known leaders who come from the. It's because of me. As a non flexible approach to leadership. Yeah, that's wrong also. Right. I am all for taking responsibility. But. But we also have responsibility. Now this is a weird sentence.

0:29:15 - (C): Yeah.

0:29:15 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Now we also have responsibility to leave responsibility with those to whom it belongs. Yeah.

0:29:24 - (C): Yeah.

0:29:24 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So there is Alfred Adler. Really? I have a crush on dead men. I just want to say that. I don't know. I don't know. I just.

0:29:35 - (Kate Davis): You got a crush on dead men? I love it.

0:29:37 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I mean my students always said the moment you are, you are knowing the source. We. We all of us know this person has died. Never ever tell our name to somebody else because we would be dead. So Alfred Adler says it's, it's. And I think this is quite a good test to who outcome belongs to. To this person belongs the responsibility. And. And we are quite often infringing on other people's responsibility in order to either control.

0:30:18 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Either control. I don't know if I have already mentioned the control.

0:30:23 - (C): Yeah.

0:30:23 - (Kate Davis): Is that because of their lack of trust?

0:30:29 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): In many cases, yes. But it's. It's also you. Have you ever heard the sentence has got to be done. Right?

0:30:37 - (Kate Davis): Of course.

0:30:39 - (C): Yeah.

0:30:40 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Right.

0:30:41 - (C): Yeah.

0:30:44 - (Kate Davis): But who's. Who's right. Which. Right.

0:30:46 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Well, I think if you. If you talk to parents who are leaders.

0:30:52 - (C): Yes.

0:30:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Great leaders in shaping the next Generation. Often the unspoken leaders of our world.

0:31:01 - (C): Yeah.

0:31:05 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): When the child is not motivated to do homework, parents are going to make sure that this is going to happen because they want their child to succeed.

0:31:16 - (C): Yes.

0:31:18 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): But actually whose job is it?

0:31:21 - (C): Yeah.

0:31:22 - (Kate Davis): I mean, look, my kid is still mad at me because I made him take piano classes. He hated them, so I let him quit. And now he's a pianist, a musician and he's like, why did you let me quit? You should have be more stern. You. I'm like, you hated it and now it's my fault. Really gotta practice more. Yeah.

0:31:44 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Really, really. It must be your fault. I think motherhood. So I'm not a mom. I just want to be very transparent.

0:31:50 - (C): Yes.

0:31:51 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I work with a lot of moms and I say you guys have signed up to one thing and one thing only. To be wrong. Always.

0:31:58 - (Kate Davis): Always. Yeah, absolutely.

0:32:01 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): The amount of whatsapps I've sent to my mom and say me aquipa. I was really a little shithead.

0:32:09 - (Kate Davis): On my. I gave my mom a mother's day card that said, you're like a mom to me, just a bugger. So.

0:32:17 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Fabulous.

0:32:19 - (Kate Davis): I know. Oh my gosh. Do you have any advice, can you share any advice you would give leaders out there and for using humor in their leadership styles?

0:32:30 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah, I would ask them to go a little bit quirky. Look, as older we get, as more serious our lives get because we get so conditioned into everything is serious. And of course, as less life is left, as more important decisions are, I get all of that. But if you think about a decision you have to make or if you think about a situation and you ask your 5 year old inner child what he or she or they think about it, you will reach a different perspective of something.

0:33:18 - (Kate Davis): Oh, I love that.

0:33:20 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah.

0:33:21 - (C): Yeah.

0:33:22 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And it can be something humorous, it can be something more light hearted. It can be. Can be something that is a bit. Which is also great. But what it all is, it's more raw, it's less suppressed. It gives us a connection again with our own being of the past and we can use that. I also think anything that runs as a protocol for making teams or bringing teams together or making stuff fun and light hearted is probably not gonna go well.

0:34:11 - (Kate Davis): Oh really? Oh, okay. I don't know if I agree with that. That's so funny.

0:34:19 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So I think if you, you want to create something new and you go in a predefined program of something.

0:34:27 - (Kate Davis): Okay.

0:34:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): You are already creating a particular outcome. Yeah.

0:34:33 - (C): Ah, okay.

0:34:35 - (Kate Davis): So how would you get around that? What would you do differently.

0:34:40 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Can I give an example of. Yeah, I would love my business. And yes, I mean it was not a multinational multi billion company, but it was about surviving for each person who worked with it.

0:34:50 - (C): Yes.

0:34:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So I did every eight weeks a group thingy. Right.

0:34:57 - (C): Yeah.

0:34:58 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And quite often, of course, you go out for dinner and did it anyway. So. One of the best group thingies I ever did in my life was a thing that was called Color me Beautiful. And it was all about which color match your complexion. So whilst, and I had boys doing that also. And you know why it was so great? It's because we all sat there in this ridiculous white outfit, none of us wore makeup.

0:35:22 - (C): Yeah.

0:35:23 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): We looked at each other and we burst out laughing because we've never seen each other.

0:35:29 - (C): Yes.

0:35:31 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And that was a moment which if I meet, and when I meet people today who used to work for me, they still remember this, this 25 years ago. Wow.

0:35:42 - (Kate Davis): It had that much impact, huh? And have you ever done it again?

0:35:46 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): No, because I know my colors now and I am beautiful. Excuse me. Unbelievable.

0:35:54 - (Kate Davis): It's interesting when everyone's in that vulnerable position. Right, Exactly. And yeah, I, that's amazing. I, I love all of this. I could talk to you for eight hours.

0:36:06 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Good, good. Let me just get some coffee.

0:36:09 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh my God. Have you ever encountered like misinterpretations or challenges using humor?

0:36:22 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Lots. I think probably more than I'm aware of because maybe I'm more, I'm probably more ignorant than I know. I, I, I think I've unintentionally have been humorous many times.

0:36:37 - (C): Yeah.

0:36:38 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Because I run between languages and yeah. Just you just say things which everyone else knows what it means and you do not know.

0:36:47 - (Kate Davis): Yes, absolutely.

0:36:49 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): There are a lot of those things in my life.

0:36:52 - (C): Yeah.

0:36:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And then of course I don't get a lot of humor where I'm, and my colleagues find it really funny when they do the proper, like proper British. Yeah, yeah, I, I do get some British humor. But then others I don't get and they, they, they love it because I look, in German we say you have a face like a car.

0:37:14 - (Kate Davis): Okay.

0:37:16 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): No facial expression.

0:37:17 - (Kate Davis): No.

0:37:20 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): And they love that. They, they, they love to basically shut me up.

0:37:24 - (Kate Davis): Oh, that's so great. Look, I took Condor Air, which is a German airline, and I just thought the stewardess was mad at me the entire time, like what did I do? But it was just them talking. So.

0:37:37 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yes. Excuse me.

0:37:39 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, exactly.

0:37:41 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): It happened. I, I, I, I went to, I went to river, which is a, which is a supermarket In Germany. And I was lost, as I always do, continuously get lost. I mean, my life is an adventure very often.

0:37:53 - (C): Yeah.

0:37:53 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Of the time, because I get lost. So I asked her to. For. For. For. For. For oatmeal. And because in the UK you ask for oatmeal, people say, of course I help you. Right. So I was super. I thought this would happen in where I come from. So she looked at me and she says, don't you see that I am attending to. To the fridge?

0:38:18 - (Kate Davis): Wow, thank you.

0:38:22 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I walked away. Then I got an angry. Then I walked back and I told her what I saw. This stuff.

0:38:26 - (Kate Davis): Oh, well, there you go. Redemption makes you feel better. Okay, so. Oh, my gosh, this has just been amazing. So we always like to end the episode on a. Of asking our guests, what is the funniest thing that's ever happened to you? Do you have a story you can share?

0:38:45 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I've. I. Let me give one that is appropriate. You know what?

0:38:50 - (Kate Davis): It's not a clean podcast, but yes, whatever you want.

0:38:54 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): No, I give you one that is more appropriate.

0:38:57 - (C): Yes.

0:38:57 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): It happened a couple of years ago. I was still in Germany. My English was okay. And I had a friend of a friend sitting. So they were all in. In my little kitchen. Say. I asked, very polite. I am. And what do you do to the lady I've never met? And she said, well, we have a lot of cattle. And I said, okay, how many? 500. And I said, you drink a lot of tea.

0:39:25 - (C): Yeah, yeah.

0:39:26 - (Kate Davis): And she's like, cattle.

0:39:28 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): People laughed.

0:39:30 - (C): Yeah.

0:39:31 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I looked like a car. Because I.

0:39:37 - (Kate Davis): In comedy, we call that a callback.

0:39:40 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Yeah. I was like, what? Until I realized, yeah, yeah, it's cattle. That was. It was a totally different kettle of fish. I learned. I learned the language. Right. So. But that was. I mean, this. It. Stuff like that not only happened once and still, because, you know, my pronunciation is not bad. I mean, I'm not.

0:40:03 - (C): Yeah.

0:40:04 - (Kate Davis): Well, I can't speak any German, so, you know, good for you. It's hard. Learning new languages is not my. It's just my brain doesn't work that way. I find it very difficult. So I admire Dr. Utah. Like, honestly, it's been such a pleasure having you as a guest of humor in the SE Suite. And coming from such a different.

0:40:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Point.

0:40:27 - (Kate Davis): Of view, you know, I have a lot of leaders who are dealing with a lot of, you know, I have 100 employees or, you know, even more or less. But when you're dealing with individuals who are all, you know, they're coming to you to Try and improve themselves.

0:40:41 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): Exactly.

0:40:42 - (Kate Davis): To make themselves better. It's like it's such a privilege. And the fact that you're using humor within those practices is heartwarming to me. And, and, and, and you know what? I, I'm hoping inspiring to the people who listen to this.

0:40:57 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): So thank you so much. Thank you for having me and. Oh, keep on giggling.

0:41:02 - (Kate Davis): No, yes, keep on giggling. I love it. Where are you right now? Are you in Germany?

0:41:10 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): No, I, I, out of whatever reason, I've. Well, the reason is clear, but I've left Germany to go to London and I live in London now.

0:41:19 - (Kate Davis): Where are you living in London?

0:41:22 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): In a part which is called Elephant and Castle.

0:41:25 - (Kate Davis): Oh, yeah. It's beautiful around there.

0:41:27 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I want to be very clear. I have no elephant and I do not live in a castle.

0:41:31 - (Kate Davis): You know, But a lot of people have drunk there, so you're good.

0:41:38 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): It is very true. It's such, it's, it's, it's so beautifully different. And I mean, that's. I find, this is what I find really gorgeous in London. So it has been said. So I never know whether it was Dickens or not. So I'm going to attribute it to Dickens. And I, I, Please apologies to everyone who knows better. Me being quite ignorant is this idea that it's not a city, but a lot of villages combined.

0:42:04 - (C): Yes.

0:42:05 - (Dr. Ute Liersch): I work in different areas. My clinic is in different areas, of course, lecturing is in different areas and so on. You walk from one thing to the other, right. And you come most beautiful. Everyone knows what London is about. And then you come to my place and you go down Woolworth Road and it's just so different. And all of a sudden you are in a, in a northern, in a northern African market and wow.

0:42:30 - (Kate Davis): Amazing. How I love it too. I, I'm in Canada, I'm in Toronto, and sometimes I'll literally get on the tube, or the subway, as we call it here, and it's just one big long subway. And it's so multicultural here. I'm like, this is world peace right here. Why can't we just all live like this?