Summer Camp: How Playground Leadership Builds Workplace Trust with Camp Director Matt Kaufman

What does summer camp have to do with building a high-performing workplace? According to Matt Kaufman — everything. In this episode of Humor in the C Suite, Kate Davis sits down with Matt to explore how the conditions that make camp transformational — safety, humor, vulnerability, and shared challenge — map directly onto what the best workplace cultures are built on. From managing 500 employees to raising a two-year-old at home, Matt brings a warm, scientifically grounded perspective on why joy isn't a distraction from great work — it's the engine of it.

Key Topics Covered

Matt and Kate cover a lot of ground in this conversation, touching on how humor functions as a neurological tool for reducing stress and building energy, why vulnerability is the foundation of trust — and how humor creates the conditions for it, the "X Words" morning meeting tradition that gets leadership teams laughing before the day even starts, the "Fun Professional" core value that Matt's team uses to hold the balance between culture and accountability, what teams that lack psychological safety look like from the outside, why former campers-turned-counselors always lean too far toward fun (and what to do about it), and the parallel between a runner's high and the endorphin-fueled energy of a great camp summer.

Standout Quotes

"I think people often think you have to look like you're not enjoying work. But the best employees I've ever worked with are having a good time when they're doing their jobs." — Matt Kaufman

"When you tell a joke, it's extremely vulnerable. And a first step towards building trust is to create vulnerability." — Matt Kaufman

"People have to feel safe before they can thrive." — Matt Kaufman

"Kids laugh 300 times a day. Adults laugh about 15. When do we lose that?" — Kate Davis

Matt's Advice for Leaders

Start small. When you're new to a team, use humor gently and build from there. As trust deepens, so does your ability to push the edges. Know your audience — humor that works in a tour for prospective parents won't land the same way in a hard conversation. And when humor misfires? Admit it fast, apologize genuinely, and move on. Nobody's perfect, and pretending otherwise only makes it worse.

The Books

The Summer Camp MBA — Ideal for anyone leading, hiring, or developing teenagers and young adults. Draws directly from camp management and culture.

The Campfire Effect — A broader exploration of what makes camp so transformational, and how those same principles apply to families, schools, and workplaces. This is the book for leaders, parents, and educators who want to build environments where people become the best version of themselves.

Both available on Amazon. Links above.

Additional Links & Resources:

• Interested in being a guest on Humor in the C-Suite? Reach out to book a call with Kate!
• Learn more about me and my work at katedavis.ca

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Humor in the C-Suite! If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast, share it with your friends, and leave a rating or review. Your support helps the podcast continue to grow. 

Hosted by Kate Davis
Edited by Chris @ Wider View Studios

Transcript

0:00:03 - (Kate Davis): Hello, I'm Kate Davis, and this is Humor in the C Suite, a show about how leaders use humor to create an extraordinary work culture. Hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Humor in the C Suite. My guest this week is Matt Kaufman. He is a Cornell University graduate who found that while school rewarded his intellect, summer camp reshaped his confidence, resilience, and connection to others.

0:00:27 - (Kate Davis): Now director of Camp Ramacoi in New York, he has witnessed that same steady transformation in thousands of young people and staff, prompting his exploration into what socially, emotionally, and neurologically makes camp such a powerful environment for growth. In his books, the Summer Camp MBA and the Campfire Effect, he blends leadership, insight, brain science, and decades of lived experience to explain how shared challenge, ritual, and everyday moments build trust and connection.

0:00:56 - (Kate Davis): Lessons that can apply far beyond camp into homes, schools, and workplaces. Through storytelling, practical insight, Matt helps parents, educators, and leaders understand how meaningful groups truly work. We had an incredible conversation. I'm so excited for you guys to hear this episode. It's so different, such a great perspective. Please welcome Matt Kaufman to Humor in the SE Suite. Oh, I am so excited to talk to you, get to know you, find out how you use humor.

0:01:29 - (Kate Davis): I thought we would just start off by telling everyone what you do and who you are.

0:01:34 - (Matt Kaufman): So I'm a summer camp director and an author. I've spent every summer since I was 4 years old at my camp, which is a day camp right outside of New York City. And I've written two books both about summer camp, but the most recent one is really about how to use what I've learned at summer camp and apply it to anything. So I think it's pretty applicable to your audience who are hopefully running really awesome organizations.

0:02:07 - (Kate Davis): Yes, it's so fascinating to me because just the analogy of it's summer camp MBA and then camp, the Campfire Effect. Right. So those are his two books, everyone. You should go get them. But I do feel like I am such a summer camp enthusiast. My best childhood memories are from summer camp, and I do feel like I apply a lot of it to my life in general to build those meaningful relationships. Because once you get those relationships at camp, those are friends for life.

0:02:38 - (Kate Davis): Right. And it's so.

0:02:40 - (Matt Kaufman): Exactly.

0:02:41 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, yeah. So fascinating. So how have you used humor, first of all, in your day to day life?

0:02:48 - (Matt Kaufman): I use humor well, it's a summer camp, so we use humor a lot. That's what we do. We make people laugh, we make people happy. But I find that I use humor to diffuse situations that could be Stressful. I'm very cognizant that humor and laughter reduces endorphins, which gives people the joy and the energy they need to keep going through hard times. So I don't think we can really be effective at our job jobs if we're not laughing and we're not having fun.

0:03:21 - (Matt Kaufman): And I think that's, that's something that I find people miss. It's that if you don't look like you're being serious, people think you're not working hard. And I, I'm a big Seinfeld fan. I don't know if you are. Yeah, I always, I always think back to when George Costanza had that, that great line when he said the, the way that, the way that people think I'm doing a good job is I just look angry and upset all the time.

0:03:47 - (Matt Kaufman): And, you know, he, he would like, whenever, whenever someone walked into his office, he'd just be like, oh, you're asking me to do this? I'm so busy. Oh, my God.

0:03:56 - (Kate Davis): Yeah.

0:03:57 - (Matt Kaufman): So, you know, I think people often think you have to look like you're, you're not enjoying work. But the best, the, the best people, the best, the best employees that I've always worked with are having a good time when, when they're doing their jobs.

0:04:11 - (Kate Davis): I love that. And they're 12. No, I'm kidding. How old? So can you give us an example of how you use hu in that leadership style?

0:04:22 - (Matt Kaufman): So one thing we do is during the summer, every morning we have a leadership meeting of our top. At this point, it's probably eight or nine staff members. These are our most key people. And every morning I get to work in the summer at 6:00', clock, and then at 7:30, we have a meeting with our top leadership team that runs till 8 o'. Clock. And at the end of the meeting, we started this really stupid tradition probably 10 years ago.

0:04:52 - (Matt Kaufman): And at the end of every meeting, we have to pick a number of words to say. And it depends on what week of camp we're in. So if it's week one, we pick one word. If it's week eight, we pick eight words. And I swear, it's like the most important part of this meeting is coming up with these X number of words. And it usually winds up being something that is such an inside joke that is just so silly and so stupid.

0:05:23 - (Matt Kaufman): But, but it gets us. We all leave this meeting laughing hysterically. And I think that's really important to start your day like that. We go out where we're all supervising A ton of other people. And we've just left this meeting that's theoretically the most important meeting that we have in. In the camp every day.

0:05:40 - (Kate Davis): Yeah.

0:05:41 - (Matt Kaufman): And we've all left laughing, so I think just really gets us started off on the right foot.

0:05:45 - (Kate Davis): Oh, that is so great. I love that. That is. You know what? I might actually use that in my next meeting. You got one word. Two weeks. You got two words. That's it. I love that. What a great thing. You're sort of translating it. That you know, what you learn at camp, you can. You. Or, you know, your leadership that you learn at camp, you. You can lead within a corporate environment, within that. Right.

0:06:12 - (Kate Davis): So I feel like your books are really for the people. You know, maybe not a director of a summer camp, but, you know, their leader. They're a leader in a business.

0:06:21 - (Matt Kaufman): So that's exactly the whole point. Right. It's. Yeah, it's at camp, we. We. I think when I talk about leadership and just for context, you know, people sometimes think of summer camp as this nice utopian place where you roll out a kickball and everyone's really happy. But my camp. My camp, for instance, we have over 500 employees every summer. So it's this crucible for figuring out how to lead people. And not all, but many of our employees, this is their first job. This is their first level of responsibility.

0:06:58 - (Matt Kaufman): So it's really, you know, you can't be a leader at camp unless you're very good at clearly explaining your instructions and being patient. And when I think about leadership, when people talk to me about leadership, I always think about it as creating an environment. You have to create the right environment for people to thrive. So I'm much more that type of leader than, say, the charismatic leader standing on a hill and, you know, ordering the troops forward, you know, And I think that it's very interesting when you talk about creating an environment.

0:07:30 - (Matt Kaufman): And I always say that people have to feel safe before they can thrive. So we always talk about creating that. That atmosphere of safety. And I think that humor has a lot to do with that, because when you're humorous, you in a lot of ways make yourself vulnerable. Right. Like when you tell a joke, it's extremely vulnerable, because what if nobody laughs? And a first step towards building trust is to create vulnerability. And there's sort of this, you know, symbiotic relationship between vulnerability and trust.

0:08:02 - (Kate Davis): I love that it's not even just telling the joke. You can show you have a sense of humor by the person laughing at the joke. Right. So you're building trust, I think, on both ends of that rope. Like it's not just one or the other. I think, you know, even if you, you know, you put yourself, it's not so much is this funny, but how does this make the other person feel, right?

0:08:23 - (Matt Kaufman): It's, it's so true. It's so true. And the types of jokes that you tell, it all, it all has to do with vulnerability and building those, those relationships. And summer camp might be an extreme example of this. But we, we need to make people happy when, when they're not happy, they're not doing their, their job well. And that's certainly true in my job, but I think it's true in, in most jobs.

0:08:46 - (Kate Davis): Yeah. No, 100%. I, I have to confess. So when my kids were younger, we didn't have a lot of money. And I, oh, I love camp when I was a kid, but camp got so expensive and I, we send them to the YMCA camp, but it was way cheaper on these two weeks that were hemophiliac weeks. So all kids, you know, who weren't well or had this certain condition, and it was way cheaper. So I send my kids on those weeks saying, you know what? No punching, no hitting. You're gonna murder someone.

0:09:18 - (Kate Davis): You gotta be chill. You gotta be chill. So, yeah, I love it. I, I just, all of it. And, and I, I think it's so cool that you get, you know, all these kids with their first jobs and teaching them how to lead and how humor builds, you know, that collaboration and that trust. Do you find that there's a lot of collaboration within the camp?

0:09:43 - (Matt Kaufman): Oh, there has to be. One thing that we do. I think a lot of camps do this, but, but mine in particular, we, we have most of our counselors, the people that are working directly with the kids are between the ages of 16 and 21. I will say our oldest employee is 99. And, and, and she's awesome too. So what does she do? She's our bookkeeper.

0:10:06 - (Kate Davis): Oh my gosh.

0:10:08 - (Matt Kaufman): The coolest person I've ever met. You should have her on the podcast.

0:10:12 - (Kate Davis): Yes, I would love that.

0:10:15 - (Matt Kaufman): But the 16 to 21 year olds, they tend to work in groups of three because we have three counselors for each group of children. And it's, it's, they, they oftentimes become great friends, like lifelong friends, because they're doing this really hard job together. But the crazy thing is that these, these groups, they, they always have a struggle. They always go through something and they come out on the other side of it better. For it and probably better friends because of it.

0:10:45 - (Matt Kaufman): And I really think that they, they learn so much more being camp counselors than they would at any other job. And working at, you know, let's say working retail in a mall or working at a fast food restaurant. They're, they're responsible for other human beings that just happened to be a few years younger than them.

0:11:04 - (Kate Davis): Yeah.

0:11:04 - (Matt Kaufman): And they have to learn how to communicate. They solve problems very quickly. They think on their feet.

0:11:09 - (Kate Davis): Amazing.

0:11:10 - (Matt Kaufman): And they, and they learn how to make a decision. And they're doing it all without the use of their phones. So they're building these interpersonal, real human skills.

0:11:20 - (Kate Davis): No phones at camp. No phones at camp.

0:11:22 - (Matt Kaufman): No phones at camp.

0:11:24 - (Kate Davis): Wow, that's great.

0:11:27 - (Matt Kaufman): We're old school. Most. A lot. A lot of camps aren't.

0:11:31 - (Kate Davis): Ain't no flies on us. That's all I have to say.

0:11:34 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah, it's, it's really, really hard to enforce. And we're probably not a hundred percent, but the rule is no, no phones at camp. No phones. While you're supervising children, do you find

0:11:43 - (Kate Davis): that because you're working in that sort of multi generational sort of atmosphere where you're not only dealing with children, you're dealing with kids and young adults, but then you're also dealing with their parents sometimes. And you find, like when, when all that put together, do you find the humor obviously has to shift? It's know your audience. But do you find it works with any age group? You found that humor?

0:12:11 - (Matt Kaufman): Humor works with any age group. And you certainly have to adjust it. You have to know the right moment. Because when you're talking to an upset parent, humor is not going to work there. But I do find that when you're talking with parents, when you're beginning the relationship with them, you can use humor to build that trust and that can buy you some credibility. When you do have to have that difficult conversation about the child that was hitting somebody else, and you have to break that news to the parents, but you've established the relationship beforehand.

0:12:44 - (Matt Kaufman): So when we give a lot of tours to prospective parents who are thinking of sending their kids to camp, and we always use a fair amount of humor in those tours to get them to understand, like, this is the kind of place we are. We're a fun place. And yeah, we do amazing things, but fun is at the top of the list of the things that we do.

0:13:04 - (Kate Davis): That's amazing. What a great place to work. Did you. How did you come to own a summer camp?

0:13:11 - (Matt Kaufman): Well, I don't own it. I Wish I did.

0:13:13 - (Kate Davis): Okay. Okay.

0:13:13 - (Matt Kaufman): But I started. I started when I was 4 years old and my sister and I.

0:13:20 - (Kate Davis): Going to this camp.

0:13:21 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah, yeah. My sister and I went to this camp. We were able to go because my father, who was a teacher, he worked at the camp. So you mentioned the cost of summer camp. It was expensive back then, so my father worked to offset that tuition. And I spent 11 years as a camper, seven years as a counselor. And at that point I was graduating college and I have an engineering degree and I was. It was right about the time of an economic career.

0:13:51 - (Kate Davis): You got the valedictorian in engineering at university, right?

0:13:56 - (Matt Kaufman): In my master's class. I did, yes. Yeah.

0:13:58 - (Kate Davis): You brainiac.

0:14:00 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. Sorry about that.

0:14:02 - (Kate Davis): No, I love it. Why? I think that's so cool.

0:14:07 - (Matt Kaufman): But we. It was a. It was an. I had a. I had a job, an IT information technology consulting job lined up. I was going into corporate America. I was going to have to wear a tie every day, which was like big on my list of stressors. But there was this economic downturn and I never wound up starting that job. So I. That's when I went back to school for my master's degree. And right around that time, I was still working at camp in my summers because what else was I going to do in my summer? Yeah.

0:14:35 - (Matt Kaufman): And they basically asked me to come on full time. And much to my mother's chagrin, I said yes to this very entry level position. And I kind of just brought my problem solving mindset, my engineering mindset to that job. And 20 something years later, here I am as a director of the camp. And I love it. I don't know what else to say, but I can't leave because I love it so much.

0:15:09 - (Kate Davis): So how many people do you have on your team when it is in the summer? Like, how are you prepping? How are you? Like.

0:15:16 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah, that's a good question. We get that a lot. So it's very cyclical. So in, you know, in September and October, we probably have about 10 people in the office.

0:15:24 - (Kate Davis): Right.

0:15:25 - (Matt Kaufman): It stays that way up until, you know, beginning in March and April, we start to ramp up. And in. In June, by that time, we probably have about 25 people in the office every day. And then we kind of flip a switch and. And the first day of camp, we have well over 500 employees.

0:15:43 - (Kate Davis): That's incredible.

0:15:45 - (Matt Kaufman): It's very. It's very strange. Even after all these years, going from 25 to 500 is really weird. And then what's even weirder is dropping from 500 to 10. It's like Ghost. It's like a ghost town after camp ends. So, yeah, it's a very strange feeling. I can't even describe it.

0:16:07 - (Kate Davis): Hi, it's Kate. I can't believe you made it halfway through the show. Look, if you or anyone you know would like to be a guest on Humor in the C Suite, I would love to have you, so email me. Kateate Davis Ca do you find when you're working, obviously it's going to be different when you're working with 10 adults and then 500, you know, you know, it's our first job, 16 to 21 year olds and you know, I know their brains are naturally all formed, their empathy parts and stuff like that.

0:16:38 - (Kate Davis): Do you find when. And is it coed the camp? I should ask that. Yeah. So you're dealing with, with men and women within that. Do you find that you're having to like inject humor into that leadership approach when you know, you. 500 or is it like, we got to get this right?

0:16:56 - (Matt Kaufman): You know, it's very much. It's, it's both.

0:17:00 - (Kate Davis): Right.

0:17:01 - (Matt Kaufman): So we have, we have core values. We, our staff have core values. And one of the core values is I am a fun professional. And it's a very. Yeah, it's both in our setting and I think in most settings, both parts are important, the fun and the professional. And what we find is we, when, when those younger staff come in, we have to be, we have to switch right from dealing with adults, dealing with younger people. And yeah, we have. Our patience has to increase.

0:17:31 - (Matt Kaufman): So there are times where we have to say, hey, you know, look at, look on the back of your name tag. It has our six core values. This one says fun, professional. And both are important right now. Do you feel like you're being professional enough or do you feel like you're being fun enough? Because we have goes both ways. And striking that balance is very much a teachable moment for us on the leadership team.

0:17:53 - (Matt Kaufman): It takes, for our new staff, it's a new experience for them and it takes them time to understand that. Yeah.

0:18:02 - (Kate Davis): And also most of them have probably been to camp as a kid. Right. So now you're coming into it as a leader. And I think that mind shift, especially at the beginning's gotta be hard because, you know, you're no longer that kid who can, but you're that counselor that everyone is looking up to.

0:18:19 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. Most of our staff are former campers, so a lot of times they lean a little too heavily on the fun part. You know, when you, when you go to basketball, if you're 16 years old and you're playing with 6 year olds, you can have fun, but you can't slam dunk on the six year olds. Right? That might be fun for you, but that's not fun for the child. So sometimes we go over all that stuff during our staff training. On the flip side, we sometimes have like a college student who's a psychology major and they're coming in and they're thinking that they're going to be, you know, analyzing these children and they're very much on the professional side. And we have to say, hey, you know, that's, that's great. You know, you're going to learn a lot here, but it also has to be fun.

0:19:02 - (Matt Kaufman): Your balance is off in this. So we, we have it both ways and we have to be very, very patient with our staff. And the great thing though is that by the second week of camp, 99% of them have it down. And it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a cultural thing. In our camp, we have great role models. You learn from other people, you learn on the job and, and most people really get it quite quickly. And that's, that's also amazing to see.

0:19:31 - (Kate Davis): That is amazing. And, and just like the fact that you're giving them that room to grow. Right. I think is so important. I'm curious, how do you, how do you, like, when you're dealing with that? Do you have any, like, advice or anything you can give, you know, our future leaders maybe on how they can approach that, that, you know, bringing humor into their leadership style and trusting it, I guess, more than anything.

0:20:00 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. I mean, my, my advice would be to start small. Right. You know, when, when you're, when you're new somewhere, it's very easy to be labeled as the, you know, the, the class clown or not, not a serious person. And I think that's a reality that we have to deal with. But use a little bit of humor and then build up to it.

0:20:26 - (Kate Davis): Right.

0:20:27 - (Matt Kaufman): You know, as you get closer and closer to your colleagues, you'll, you'll know when you can push the boundaries a little bit. And then there's obvious things that we speak about in terms of, you know, boundaries with, you know, sexual orientation and things like that that have to be said. I mean, they have to be said everywhere. But, but especially when you're dealing with, with younger people, teenagers, we have to be very clear about that.

0:20:53 - (Matt Kaufman): And they sometimes make mistakes. And I think that we have to Be understanding and forgiving when it's an honest mistake and not so understanding and forgiving when it's different from that.

0:21:06 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, that's very, very well put, Matt. That. That could have gone very sideways right there. No. Good job.

0:21:17 - (Matt Kaufman): We've had these conversations many times. So

0:21:22 - (Kate Davis): have you ever had where it's actually misfired on you, and how have you recovered from that when it was a misunderstanding, when using humor?

0:21:33 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah, I think that happens to me probably on a daily basis, if I'm being honest. My philosophy is just when I make a mistake, I do my best to admit it very quickly and apologize, and that's all I can do. We're not perfect. I'm certainly not perfect. And I think you just have to be honest about it, apologize, and move forward.

0:21:58 - (Kate Davis): What's the biggest difference you've observed between a team that generally is comfortable with humor and one that's still building trust?

0:22:09 - (Matt Kaufman): That's a good question. So you're asking what you can see from the outside looking in. What are the telltale signs?

0:22:17 - (Kate Davis): Like, if you have. Yeah, go.

0:22:19 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. So this is definitely something that I've seen, and I have, I think, a pretty good answer for this is when a team. When a group of people doesn't feel safe around each other, you will see that they don't take risks. You will see very obvious things, like people are afraid to speak up in a meeting. People are afraid of being judged. They're not generating new ideas. They're not trying things that fail.

0:22:46 - (Matt Kaufman): You know, trying things that fail is a hallmark of very successful teams, because if you don't. If you don't try things that fail, you're not going to try things that succeed. So if you see things like that, you probably have a group of people that aren't feeling the necessary safety to thrive. And I definitely see that and spot that with groups of campers, with groups of counselors. And then we have to intervene and take a bit of a closer look at what's going on there.

0:23:15 - (Kate Davis): Yeah, you're a great boss. Eh, Maybe I'll come work at the camp.

0:23:20 - (Matt Kaufman): Do you have your summers free? We'd love. We're looking for a podcasting specialist.

0:23:24 - (Kate Davis): Are you? That's so great.

0:23:27 - (Matt Kaufman): We used to have one. We don't have one right now, so we're open to it.

0:23:31 - (Kate Davis): Maybe I'll come live in New Jersey. Where's the camp?

0:23:35 - (Matt Kaufman): It's 30 miles northwest of Manhattan.

0:23:38 - (Kate Davis): Okay. Wow. That's amazing. I. It's so funny to me because I have such fond memories at Camp but then I also have like some memories that were really like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened. Like, I remember being accused of stealing someone's stamps in our cabin. But I didn't. Right. And just being so, like, this is outrageous. I think I still feel like, you know, it could have been, it could have been a murder charge and I, I would have felt the same way. And it was only stamps. Like, you take everything so seriously when you're little, right?

0:24:17 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. And yeah, it's this, it's this completely enclosed environment. Right. Like you're cut off from the world when you're there.

0:24:23 - (Kate Davis): Like you're on Traders, you know?

0:24:27 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. I mean, it's everyone who, everyone has such vivid, strong memories of camp. And that's, that's one of the things I love about it. It's just, it's, it's a life shaping experience for so many people.

0:24:42 - (Kate Davis): And, and bringing that life shaping experience for so many people, it, with your books that you've written into the workplace, into the corporate environment, I think is so powerful because, you know, that child self within all of us that was willing to take risks, that was really, you know, I mean, kids laugh 300 times a day. Adults on average laugh about 15. You know, and it's like, when do we lose that? When do we lose ourselves in that? And I think this is, I was so excited for this just because of that, Matt. Like, it's just so powerful to me how you're shaping so many people. Not only the 10 in the office all year round, but then going to 500 and then plus all the campers.

0:25:24 - (Kate Davis): You know, you, all of a sudden you have this village that you're, you're leading.

0:25:30 - (Matt Kaufman): Yeah. And so the first book that I wrote, the Summer Camp mba, is more specific to camp. But anyone that's leading or employing teenagers or young adults can definitely learn from it. But the motivation behind the Campfire effect was people would ask me all the time, why are you still at camp? What is it about camp? Why do you love it so much? And my answer was always, I could explain it to you in three hours, but I can't explain it to you in 30 seconds. So.

0:26:00 - (Kate Davis): Right.

0:26:01 - (Matt Kaufman): I'm just going to skip that question. So I actually, you know, it was kicking around in my mind for a long time about like writing a book about it. And I started doing some research and one thing that I realized unexpectedly was that everything we do at camp to make it such a magical place, a special place, a place of growth can be done Anywhere in a family, in a school, in a workplace. So that was kind of the motivation, what the book turned into.

0:26:29 - (Matt Kaufman): It's not a book for camp people really, because people already know all this stuff. It's for the rest of the world to bring some of this. Because I get parents coming up to me all the time saying my child is the best version of themselves during the summer. Why can't school be that way? They're nicer, they're kinder, they're open to new ideas during the summer and then in the school year they're not the same way.

0:26:52 - (Matt Kaufman): And, and that's a real thing that happens. And it happens because of the way that camp is structured. This, this feeling of happiness, this feeling of joy, this feeling of trust. People can do better things when they feel that way.

0:27:07 - (Kate Davis): Absolutely. They can. Yeah. They can take those risks. You know, whether it's going climbing up something or going on the water and trying something new. And bringing that to your jobs, I think is really powerful. And especially as a leader creating that environment. Right. So that's absolutely amazing. Do you find it's different with your family and dealing with them, or are you the same guy?

0:27:33 - (Matt Kaufman): I think I'm the same person, but it's different. It's different. And I'm not sure exactly why, but I think it's because at camp I'm clearly in charge and in my family I don't think I'm very much in charge at all. My wife is definitely in charge, actually, my two year old is certainly in charge. So I think that's. That has a little bit to do with it. But I. I do like to bring a lot of that silliness to everything that I do. I'm not afraid to be silly. I'm not afraid to.

0:28:08 - (Matt Kaufman): I'm not afraid to demoralize myself, make a fool.

0:28:14 - (Kate Davis): Okay. What benefits have you personally experienced from incorporating humor into your daily life?

0:28:22 - (Matt Kaufman): Oh, I don't know. I mean, everything. I mean, I love my job. I think I just love, you know, in the summer at camp, it is a grueling, physical job. I wake up at five in the morning. I don't get back home until nine o' clock at night. I'm first eating dinner typically. And so it is grueling. And I think the way that we get through it is it's similar to running a marathon. And the humor, the energy, the joy, the laughter that builds up endorphins and gives us the.

0:28:58 - (Matt Kaufman): Just the energy to keep going the way that the runners have a runner's high it's the same thing. I mean, if you said to someone, you know, hey, do you want to spend every day in excessive heat, outdoors for eight hours a day, dealing with crazy problems that you could never think of and getting no sleep and working like crazy? You'd be like, no, I don't want to do that, but, oh, my gosh.

0:29:22 - (Kate Davis): But I love it.

0:29:24 - (Matt Kaufman): Right, Right. And it's. It's just the. The chemical, the endorphins. It's. It's. It's just such a. A positive. And you're doing it with people you love.

0:29:31 - (Kate Davis): Yeah.

0:29:32 - (Matt Kaufman): And that's the key thing there.

0:29:34 - (Kate Davis): Okay, Matt, one last question, which is always the way we end the podcast. Do you have a story about the funniest thing that's ever happened to you?

0:29:45 - (Matt Kaufman): I will share a story. I don't know if it's the funniest thing. It's really putting me on the spot, but I'll share a silly story. So for about 20 years, there was another person that worked at my camp that was also named Matt, and he was in charge of the older boys, the teenage boys. And on parent visiting nights, we'd often stand next to each other. We had our name tags on. And people would walk by, and they'd be like, oh, two mats. And it would happen, like, 15 times a night.

0:30:15 - (Matt Kaufman): Or someone would say, matt squared. And they think that was clever. And that would happen a lot. But one time, this is the furthest it ever went. One time, I was meeting a parent. I had my name tag on. They were coming to pick up their son, and the mom came over to me, and she said, I just want to thank you for giving my son a great summer, which is not terribly unusual. You know, I get that a lot.

0:30:41 - (Kate Davis): Yeah.

0:30:41 - (Matt Kaufman): So I was like, oh, no, no problem. And then she. She took a step closer and said, what. What you guys have done for him is really amazing. So I said, oh, well, it's been our pleasure to have him. And then. And then she started to cry, and she gave me a hug and said, he's. He hasn't been. He hasn't been the same child since we had that conversation. You changed his life. And I had never had a conversation with her about her. So this was clearly the other mat talking to her.

0:31:12 - (Matt Kaufman): And now I had a crying mom hugging me. And I just. I looked to my. Right about probably 100ft away. And the other Matt was just looking at me, laughing. He knew exactly what was going on.

0:31:25 - (Kate Davis): Oh, yeah. Did you give it away?

0:31:27 - (Matt Kaufman): No, I did not. I was too far into it. She was crying.

0:31:31 - (Kate Davis): Yeah. You're hugging. You can't. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm amazing. No, that's great. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast Humor in the C Suite. It's, you know, I've had a lot of different guests, a lot of different industries, but I love this analogy of everything we do at camp can be done in the office, in schools. And why isn't it, you know, because those really are our happiest memories and we have that.

0:32:01 - (Kate Davis): We have that choice to make it those environments to build environment of trust and vulnerability and all those things that we've talked about. So I've actually really enjoyed this.

0:32:10 - (Matt Kaufman): Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I had a great time. And I agree with everything you said about we can bring humor, we can bring joy, we can bring all these things to any organization, any group of people, anywhere.

0:32:22 - (Kate Davis): Yes, yes, preach.